Show Notes
On this episode of Nuance, Case interviews Certified Mediator for the Supreme Court of Florida, Jim Winter, on the intersection of faith and work. They discuss the vocation of mediation and how they have seen God work amidst people’s trials and hardships. They also discuss the challenges of making life-changing decisions in the justice system and the potential for reconciliation and restoration through the application of Christian values.
Nuance is a podcast of The Collaborative where we wrestle together about living our Christian faith in the public square. Nuance invites Christians to pursue the cultural and economic renewal by living out faith through work every facet of public life, including work, political engagement, the arts, philanthropy, and more.
Each episode, Dr. Case Thorp hosts conversations with Christian thinkers and leaders at the forefront of some of today’s most pressing issues around living a public faith.
Our hope is that Nuance will equip our viewers with knowledge and wisdom to engage our co-workers, neighbors, and the public square in a way that reflects the beauty and grace of the Gospel.
Learn more about The Collaborative:
Website: https://collaborativeorlando.com/
Get to know Case: https://collaborativeorlando.com/team/
Episode Transcript
Case Thorp
Look over there to the south side of the public square, and you see the courthouse. Courthouses are in every community, this building that stands for justice, a place of protecting rights enforcing the law. So we see coming in and out judges, attorneys, black robes and Lady Justice holding her scales with a blindfold, shielding her eyes from bias. Well, today, friends, we’re going to lean in a little bit more into the justice system. And we’re going to talk to a friend and a man whom I greatly respect, Jim Winter, he serves as a Supreme Court of Florida, certified mediator. And it was at a recent conversation with Jim about court mediation, that I was just fascinated, not only with how it works, but that it’s a viable option. It helps ease the load on the justice system. And it is a place where Jim, as a Christ follower, can live out his values and convictions. So I’m really glad to have Jim Winter here as my guest. Jim, welcome.
Jim Winter
Thank you very much. I’m glad to be here.
Case Thorp
Well, many of you know Nuance is our podcast about being faithful in the public square. I’m Case Thorp and I want to encourage you to like, subscribe and share. It really helps us to grow out an audience. Now I’ve gotten to know Jim through our love of our church. We do a lot of denominational work together. Jim is an elder at River City Church in DeBary, Florida, which is just north of Orlando, for those of you across the country listening. He recently served as the moderator of our presbytery, which is quite a position of honor. Jim hails from Oxford, Mississippi, a third generation Ole Miss graduate and served his career with distinction in the US Air Force. In those 28 years he spent 10 in Panama, 4 in Italy, 3 in Germany, just really, really impressive. Served in Vietnam, Desert Shield and Desert Storm where he earned a number of medals for exemplary service, two legions of merit, a Bronze Star, a Defense Meritorious Service Medal and distinguished Presidential Unit Award. Jim, I had no idea. You need to wear some of those at presbytery meeting. But, sincerely, thank you for your service. Jim has one wonderful wife, two children, six grandchildren and a great grandchild. You know, Jim, I never would have guessed, great grandchild.
Jim Winter
It happens before you know it.
Case Thorp
So now as a Supreme Court mediator, Jim has the authority and jurisdiction to settle cases of bad debt, eviction, citizens or who are in dispute with one another, and even these monetary cases up to $50,000. And so that’s what we’re going to explore today. How a Christian steps in to the public square to see that justice is done. So Jim, I appreciate you being here. Give us a sense of what is mediation? And do you have to have a law degree to do it?
Jim Winter
Well, it’s an interesting concept, fairly new in the sense of justice. The whole idea of mediation comes from dispute resolution. And the idea of that, and it’s not just in our county, actually, I’m in a separate circuit than you are. I’m in Volusia County. But the state itself, Florida, is one of the leading states in the program of dispute resolution. And the idea that is that we would give citizens an opportunity to solve their own issues between parties. So when a case is filed, and I work county civil only, but when a case is filed for county civil jurisdiction, the judge decides which cases should go for mediation. Most cases do go for mediation, and they give the case to someone like me who’s trained and represents the court itself. They give us the opportunity to bring the parties together. So they will have a say in the outcome of the case. If you go to to the case, if a case is given back to the judge, he rules on the law, no matter what the circumstances are, but in mediation, we have a chance to hear from both sides and that they contribute to the resolution of their case.
Case Thorp
Now, you mentioned it’s in the civil cases, are there mediators that engage in criminal cases?
Jim Winter
Not criminal, but but family court, circuit Court…those kinds of cases, yes. They have mediation, but criminal.
Case Thorp
Sure. And I can imagine, a mediator saves the courts tremendous amount of money, and helps to get the docket clear.
Jim Winter
They do, I think that’s a great benefit. One, the best benefit, I think, dispute resolution, it involves the citizens themselves, and they have a chance to work out their issues. The second thing is, it is a great benefit to the judicial system. There’s, there’s a lot of court cases that are on record that it takes a while to get through them all. And mediation, takes that case away from the judge’s docket, allows us to try to resolve it on the side, and then most of the ones that we have, we do resolve, and that takes the place in saves the court time saves the judge time. And he has the final authority to rule on our results of our mediation, but 99% of them are approved and still under the jurisdiction of the court to be sure it’s resolved, as they agree.
Case Thorp
And so you say most of them are resolved, what percentage for your mediation cases are successful?
Jim Winter
Any case that comes to a mediator is either resolved where they agree to and we actually write up the agreements aka contract, so to speak, it’s a stipulation, we actually write up the agreement and they sign it, that becomes the court action, that and they have to abide by that. And that is monitored by the court. Of the cases that we get, we run probably, I would say 65 to 70% of the cases that we work that do result in resolution, the ones that don’t go back to the court system, and the judge then has them in court, and then he makes the ruling on the case.
Case Thorp
And so I would imagine it’s really to the advantage of the parties to get it done in mediation.
Jim Winter
Absolutely, I would say one of the best benefits of it is to witness this in action because oftentimes, people in civil matters…it could be neighbors, it could be a barking dog, it could be a fence, it could be a tree. And there’s interesting issues that can arise between you and your neighbors or other people. But let’s just say that’s a, let’s talk about that kind of situation. Oftentimes, when something happens, hard feelings develop. They get polarized, everybody’s mad at each other. And they’ll just use the court right off the bat to show their anger, and they can prove their position’s right. So that gives us a chance to work with both parties. And in the mechanics of it, when we bring the two parties together, as a mediator, we’re in total control of the case. But yeah, oftentimes, if there is anger and mistrust or animosity between the two parties, we can separate the parties and actually mediate in two different locations. Oftentimes this dispute resolution, because you can calm people down, go over it with them carefully. Let them know that we respect their opinion. And it’s their choice. We’re not telling them what to do. And once they feel like someone’s really listening to them, and really cares about their case, it often changes attitudes. And when we talk about the alternatives to not resolving it and going back to the court in an objective way, then they start kind of counting the cost and saying, You know what, maybe I’ll resolve this and still walk out of here at least talking to each other. So that’s a benefit to it.
Case Thorp
Jim give us an example of of where you’ve had to mediate with a real life situation.
Jim Winter
Okay? Right now, in our current timing and society, housing is a real serious problem for a lot of people, especially affordable housing. And we oftentimes find one of the clients, one of the parties, usually it’s the defendant in a situation where maybe they have received assistance from the government for low cost housing. And when they receive assistance from the government, they sign a contract and an understanding, if they ever get evicted, then they’re out of the program. But really, that’s really about the only way they can make it in today’s world. So we oftentimes find a person who can qualify, has good credit, they can qualify for a low-cost housing rental. So they move into the house. Oftentimes, they have children, and they have the party that the father of the child, or at least they have someone living there that keeps the children, babysits, while she ends up working, oftentimes to make it, they work, maybe two jobs.
Case Thorp
So this lady was working herself to death. I mean, the guy was watching the children, but was he kind of a loaf and not really leaning in a way that he could or should?
Jim Winter
That’s exactly what happens. Oftentimes, you find out that the male who’s babysitting is really, he has no job, that’s his job is to babysit. And he’s into other activities. And if especially if he has a run in with the law, and he’s incarcerated, now, there’s no babysitter. She’s linked with him, not on the lease, because it’s her name, it’s on the lease. So what happens, she has to make some really hard decisions. And that’s what mediation can really help her work through. Because often they’re life-changing decisions, and she has to decide, am I gonna get the money and my mom and dad or someone else are going to help me out? They’ve helped me before, in this is where mediation can really help her talk about finances and money and continuing long term solution. And it’s very difficult, because oftentimes, it means that they’re gonna have to split up with their live-in partner, and then mom, or grandma’s going to end up with the kids, and she’s still gonna end up working. But she can’t qualify for another house unless she voluntarily moves out of the house, she can’t get another low cost loan from the government. So there’s some life changing decisions that have to be made, and that’s a typical one.
Case Thorp
Well, over the years, I’ve gotten to know different folks in the justice system, who were Christ-followers, who were approaching their work from this desire to see justice roll down like waters. One is a federal court judge that I take my Gotham fellows to visit with every spring. And I once had a prosecutor who was an elder in our church, and she had me join her at the Orange County Jail one morning, she was in charge of processing arraigning, all of the inmates that had brought been brought in the night before by the police. And wow, I was just overwhelmed at not only the issues, the system, but the amount of money that we as a society put in to justice. And I’m thrilled for this. I’m not suggesting we cut back. But I can imagine in some countries, you know, folks are just thrown in a hole and forgotten. And yet here, we really live up to those values and seek to see justice done. So tell us a little bit about your faith journey. And then we’ll get to how that feeds your work today.
Jim Winter
Well, I grew up in a Christian home. My dad was in World War II and my mother moved back home to her parents, and my granddad was a gospel singer. He was a good Presbyterian. In fact, the two of the brothers and sisters in his family actually planted a church in the early 1900s which still stands today. So, but I was around loving, caring people, but I’ve never really committed myself as a Christian. I didn’t know what it meant. I just thought it was I was born a Christian, that kind of thing. And I got married and everything seemed to be going fine. But it’s, you know, life’s challenges happened. And I was kind of, in a situation where I was a workaholic, I didn’t see my main duty is to take care of my wife, my family, my main duty was to work and be successful and climb the ladder as fast as I could.
Case Thorp
And that’s the story of so many professionals.
Jim Winter
And it’s so funny how God, I always say, it’s funny, because I love the way God works. It’s so funny how things happen. But I was selected for a special school, which was away from where I was stationed at that time. And I didn’t want to give it up, because it would have been great for my career. So I didn’t tell my wife, I was selected to go until the last minute. And when I told her that I was leaving, I said, you know, guess what, I got picked to the special schools for three months, and I’m gonna be gone. It’s only only two people got picked out of the entire headquarters. And I was so excited about it. And that was the work of the Lord. I’m tired. And it was so funny, wasn’t funny at the time, but I went to the school, checked in. And the very first meeting we had of the School, a general officer came in and welcomed us all and told us what the school was all about. And the first thing he said was, and I teach a Bible study at the officer’s club every Friday at seven o’clock, and I want all of you to be there. And I thought, man, I’ve never heard this before. So I went to the officer’s club. And I sat at a table with two of the faculty members of the school. And both of them were self-proclaimed evangelists. And they they knew exactly my situation. And they gave me a chance to talk and I talked and I said, Yeah, I’m not sure I’m in the right place. I think I left my wife and in distress, and I’m not sure what’s going to happen. And I was there. And through that process of knowing them, they invited me to different things, I got involved. Then I gave my life to Christ at the school, and through their their ministry called Sunshine Ministry. And I was just, I couldn’t believe it. I mean, it was just like, somebody lifted the curtain, turned on the light. And I was just so excited. In fact, I call my wife at night, after a meeting with them, I accepted Christ that night, I got home about 9:30 or so. And I called my wife on the phone and I said, You won’t believe what just happened to me. She said, Have you been drinking again? No, she said, What’s wrong with you? I said, I have accepted Christ in my life. And I said, I can’t, it just hit me so hard. And she said, What? You’ve always been a Christian. And I said, No. And at that time, I remember how God brings things to your memory. I remember the week before I left home, we were in church. And we were singing they know we’re Christians by our love, by our love. They’ll know we’re Christians by our love. And it hit me, and I thought, am I a Christian? Yeah, I love people. I guess I’m a Christian. And that very thought, when that happened to me, I realized that was God telling me. You got to really realize what it really means to be a Christian. So it was a great opportunity. And then after that, I was just so involved in so many different Christian things.
Case Thorp
Well, Jim, your story reminds me of Proverbs 31:23. The line is her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land. And you’re an elder at the church, leader in our denomination, this mediation work, back in scriptural times, I imagine, you know, the city gate was where the elders set the city leaders. And they primarily sat there so that they could keep an eye on who was coming and going. So that they could protect the families and those on the inside of the city walls. And that metaphor carries over throughout the Bible. Tell me, how do you see your faith undergirding this work of mediation?
Jim Winter
Well, it’s interesting that because I pray about every case I get, and it’s amazing in the conversation with people how they bring up their faith, and I’m not allowed, working in the system, to talk about my faith. But I certainly can accept what they’re saying and work with them. And I can, anything they tell me, I can repeat to them. And oftentimes, they’re just saying, I’ve just given up, nothing’s going my way, I’ve lost my job. I don’t, I’m getting ready to be evicted. You know. And so I just, you know, as we talk, I can talk more, what have you done about it? You know, have you really sat down and thought about it? And oftentimes, that will direct their attention. And they will say, Well, you know, I’ve been praying about it. I said, Well, what do you think results are your prayer are? Now I can get into that kind of thing, if they said, and God will lead you right in there. And I just, it’s amazing to see, when they start thinking spiritually or about forgiveness, or oftentimes it’s forgiveness, and two people are so mad at each other. And if I can get one of them to realize that they need to ask for forgiveness, they’ve done something wrong, or in the other side, to be able to go to them and say, I think, you know, I need to talk to you about this, we need to get it resolved. I’m willing to meet you part of the way there are those kinds of doors open constantly, and mediation, and you can’t open them particularly, but your conversation to get them to think about these kinds of things. And if it’s their decision, and then you get to that point, then you can work with it. So I love it. It’s, I’ve seen God do some great things, people cry, I have people, they’re not supposed to call me that the only time they ever get my phone is if we sign on a mediation and I happen to put my phone number above they get a copy, I’ve actually haven’t called me at home and report to me the case. I said, Well, I can’t talk to you on the phone about it. But God is so good to them. And I think it’s a great way to show them that people do care about what’s going on in their lives, and even at the end. And we’ve had some really horrible things going on and they’re faced with some really tragic things. And oftentimes, they’re younger people, and to show them that people do care about what they think and people care about, about their choices. That is a privilege. It really, truly is.
Case Thorp
I can imagine for some people, you’re the first or one of the few they’ve met who are calm and loving and listening and truly hoping to find some peaceable resolution here. I’ve heard a lot of lawyers over time share with me that they have a great platform for bearing witness and showing love and asking the hard questions because others welcomed them into those situations. And in the normal world of conversation with our neighbors, it’s hard to get there to the tough stuff without looking pompous, or as if you have an answer for their life, but you have an incredible opportunity that just kind of comes to you.
Jim Winter
Well, because you speak with authority, they think you’re a judge, which we explain we’re not. But as far as they’re concerned, you know, their lives are counted in our hands. And our job is not to present that position. But but they think that and I think that it’s good, put you in a situation where they’re, they are willing to listen. And when you ask them questions, they really try to answer them oftentimes, I mean, sometimes they don’t, they’re not cooperative, and that those cases, probably don’t get resolution and it goes right back to the judge again. But no, I think it’s a great way to serve. And it’s a great way to be able to depend on the Lord for help, because you can’t come right out and say a lot of things you would like to say. And, and you deal with some pretty, pretty hard cases of violence and sexual abuse and all kinds of things that that come into play on these cases. And it give you a chance to think that like you say to, so that the main thing is to trust if they trust you, if they trust me, and in discussion, and they know that I’m neutral, and then I’m not trying to you know, take either side. And I get a lot of progress, we can usually work toward resolution.
Case Thorp
Now you’re bringing that presence and those values of Scripture into these situations. I would I would hope I would imagine when you have a dispute and one person is a Christian and takes their faith seriously, do you see them managing the process differently?
Jim Winter
Oh, yeah. We’re not supposed to wear anything on our clothing that indicates you know that or about our faith or political leanings or anything like that. But I do wear a ring, it’s got a cross it. And I don’t, I don’t think much about it, I wear it every day. But they’ll examine you. And they’ll pick that ring up. And oftentimes, you know, they’ll mention it, you know? And I’ll just say, Well, you know, I am a Christian. But you know, and I try to say that’s not part of the decision, you know, we’re here to work with you and your decision. But if they’re a Christian, oftentimes, you know, if they want to talk about it, then especially younger people, who really don’t have maybe parental help and all that, and I asked them if I can ask them well, you know, have you talked to your pastor? Have you been to church? Do you go to church and those kinds of things? If they’re talking about it, then I can say, you know, I can list questions to ask them along those lines. And that’s, that’s where you really see people that are reaching out, not knowing what to do, but starting to trust that maybe faith is an answer to this.
Case Thorp
Well, a few episodes back, we spoke with a homebuilder, and he has a very high bar in terms of serving his customers well, and when there’s a problem with the house after they have finished it, he will lean in and do all he can to remedy that. And he said one time homeowner was just giving him fits, and going on and on and getting very upset. And finally, Steve, my guest said, aren’t you a Christian? Because he had learned his family’s story and background during the homebuilding process? And the man said, Well, yes, I am. And he said, so am I, do you think we could just manage this in a in a different way? And Steve said, it completely changed the dynamic, sort of calling one account to the very values they believe and seek to emulate. And then they resolved things and it was much more peaceful.
Jim Winter
Well, I’ve had, I’ve had parties, the actual say, Well, I’ve been praying for you to tell the other party, I would like to resolve this, my husband and I, or I, or whoever, we’ve been praying about this, we’ve been praying for you, and they come right out and just tell the other party, you know, about their faith and what they’re using to try to resolve it.
Case Thorp
How often would you say there’s a reconciliation, more than just a dispute resolution, but like you say, people’s hearts, repent, seek forgiveness, and really are restored with the other?
Jim Winter
A lot. I think, one thing I think, as a mediator, especially Christians should hear. You know, I think about them, I’ll think about their family, especially younger people. You know, they have a relationship with their parents, they sometimes they have siblings, and I just don’t want to give up until I try to work towards some kind of, and I’m praying, you know, Lord, you know, take care of these people. And if they have, and oftentimes you will get a clue. I think God throws that out through them, but introduces the audience thought that, that they have somebody they can trust. And oftentimes, that’s what we say, you know, do you have someone in your family you can trust and confide in and maybe work with and try to resolve this? And oftentimes, we have people, parents, evicting their families out of their own house. That’s hard. Yeah. So evicting a brother or sister out of the house. So that’s a hard one to deal with. But it opens the door a lot. If I talk to them long enough, and I think it’s the Spirit working, I really do. I think the more you talk about, well, what’s important to you, and you know, how long, you know, did you have a good relationship with your sister or brother or whoever early in the life? And, you know, what was it that made you disagree and all that when some of the questions I have to now have to be legitimate questions, and I have to have a reason to ask. But the doors there.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Well, we speak. We talk a lot about in our church on missional living, of sharing one’s faith through their faithfulness to their neighbors, through their Christian witness, if that is explicitly verbal on the truth. So the gospel go for it. But it’s also caring about the common good. So you’re doing that in such a unique way. And inspires me to say, wow, maybe in future seasons when I have more capacity, this sounds like really substantive work. What inspired you, Jim to get into mediation?
Jim Winter
Well, through a church friend, who, who’s had a relationship, a working relationship with one of the judges and are in Volusia County, he got the judge himself, talked to her and said, you know, what, you should be a mediator. You know, we need people that can understand people and work with people and try to resolve their issues. And she got into it. And so she talked to my wife and I, and she said, I think you guys would be good mediators. So that’s how we got into it. And from there, we went to Tallahassee to the Supreme Court, we spent a week up there for training. And you have to go through process, you have to pass tests, and those kinds of things, and we got certified at that point. And that was over 10 years ago.
Case Thorp
Wow. Well, what would you say to anyone listening that feels like they might have the capacity for such work?
Jim Winter
I think the interesting thing is we have mediators that are young, that are out of, you know, that have been through studies in one of the local schools and, or maybe in going to law school right there in Orlando. There’s some law schools there. And we have students who want to get into mediation, to learn more about the process to become a better lawyer. And so we have we have a lot of lawyers that are that are in mediation. But what I would say is for people like me, who are not a lawyer, who wants to help, then we you can contact your dispute resolution office in Orlando at the courthouse, they have a person who’s in charge of dispute resolution, and ask them, How do I become a mediator, and they actually offer training there. You don’t have to go to Tallahassee to do that. There’s online training, and there’s a process you go through. And, and they would love to have anybody that wants to be a mediator.
Case Thorp
Sure. I think it’s just a fantastic way to serve your community, and one that has such ripple effects for people and families and neighborhoods. Well, Jim, in closing, I always like to ask this question. Where do you feel God’s pleasure in your work?
Jim Winter
I think just watching him work, because I know that I know, his character. I think you’re in a position to always be searching for him saying, Okay, Lord, what now? What’s going to happen here? What’s going to happen there? What’s the best way to ask this question? I mean, we have people in mediation, that actually, when we first start together in the same place across the table, who are yelling four letter words at each other, I mean, and you know, threatening, and I have to separate them. At that point. I’m dealing with an angry, mean-spirited, you know, hate between to people. And I just said, Okay, Lord, where do we go from here? You know, how do we do it and my pleasure of all of this, even our judges, we’ve got some great judges who really care about people. And I love to see them work. And I see the way they apply the law is fair, and they care about people. And I think seeing God’s hand in all of that, to me, is just where I think God wants you to serve, and how you think, can I fit into that role or not. And the doors open, if you just ask, you will receive. I mean, he will open doors you haven’t thought about if you’re just willing to continue to, you know, seek him out first.
Case Thorp
Fantastic, Jim, thank you for your time. And again, thank you for your service. I really appreciate it.
Jim Winter
Thank you.
Case Thorp
Well, as Jim mentioned, you can follow up and approach your own local courthouse where there’s a dispute resolution office if you have a need for such services. Friends, thank you for joining us today. Remember to like and share it helps us to get out the word. Please leave a review wherever you get your podcasts that helps others find us and get promoted in the way in which the computers work. Visit collaborativeorlando.com for all sorts of content, find us across the social media platforms. I’ll say too on collaborativeorlando.com you can for free get a 31 day prompt journal on faith and work. Just give us your email and we’ll send you this journal that takes you through a number of prompts about your faith and your vocation and helps you to reflect more deeply on that with the Lord. Don’t forget our Nuance Formed for Faithfulness, a weekly 10-minute devotional podcast for the working Christian that follows the liturgical calendar. Want to thank our sponsor for today, Ben Vincent, Esquire of Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I’m Case Thorp, and God’s blessings on you.
