Show Notes
On this episode of Nuance, Case is joined by Bill Kristol, Former VP Chief of Staff and neoconservative journalist, about the current American religious and political landscape. They discuss the increase in anti-Semitism, the role of religion in politics, and the dangers of Christian nationalism. Kristol reflects on the decrease in religious affiliation and the societal forces contributing to it, as well as reasons to be hopeful for a return to civility in American politics.
Episode Resources:
https://conversationswithbillkristol.org/
Conversations with Bill Kristol (Podcast):
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/conversations-with-bill-kristol/id925428680
Nuance is a podcast of The Collaborative where we wrestle together about living our Christian faith in the public square. Nuance invites Christians to pursue the cultural and economic renewal by living out faith through work every facet of public life, including work, political engagement, the arts, philanthropy, and more.
Each episode, Dr. Case Thorp hosts conversations with Christian thinkers and leaders at the forefront of some of today’s most pressing issues around living a public faith.
Our hope is that Nuance will equip our viewers with knowledge and wisdom to engage our co-workers, neighbors, and the public square in a way that reflects the beauty and grace of the Gospel.
Learn more about The Collaborative:
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Episode Transcript
Case Thorp
Come with me to Florence, Italy. Now picture yourself walking across Piazza Massimo D’Azeglio, a beautiful park and public square. Ahead lies one of Europe’s most stunning Jewish synagogues, the Great Synagogue of Florence. Also known as Tempio Maggiore, this synagogue is a masterpiece of Moorish revival architecture. The exterior is adorned with alternating bands of pink, red, and cream-colored stone. Large horseshoe arched windows, and intricate geometric and floral designs. Its prominent green copper dome shapes the skyline, much like Il Duomo’s red dome nearby. Now as Christians, we often find partners on social issues with Jewish brothers and sisters. From traditional views on family, the authority of ancient scripture, the mission of God’s covenant people, I find Jewish voices to be helpful and insightful in our effort at faithfulness in the public square. Well, so today I’m pleased to have one such voice and ally in many ways with our convictions. Here to talk with me about America’s religious landscape, I’m honored to have today’s guest, Politico editor journalist, Bill Kristol. Bill, thank you so much for being here.
Bill Kristol
Thank you. Thank you for that unusual introduction all the way to Florence. That was great.
Case Thorp
Well, I’ve got a few more details to share about you. But to give your time to little old Nuance, I really appreciate it. And I am a huge fan of Conversations, your podcast.
Bill Kristol
Well, thank you. We try to every two weeks. It started off as more academic, now it’s a little bit broader, public intellectuals and some journalists. But yeah, it’s also an attempt to contribute to the public conversation, which sometimes seems a little difficult these days.
Case Thorp
Well, your tone and particularly the depth you go to with these experts. And it really feeds me. Well, to our friends and viewers, welcome to Nuance, where we seek to be faithful in the public square. I’m Case Thorp. And as always, I encourage you, like, subscribe, share, help us to get the word out there. Well, let me tell you a bit about our guest. So Bill Kristol is a native of New York City, comes from a family deeply rooted in journalism, history, and the conservative political movement. Harvard University alumnus, Bill earned both his undergraduate degree and a Ph.D. in political science and began his career in the academy. Yet, D.C. came a-calling and Bill quickly rose through the ranks of the Reagan administration and served as Vice President Dan Quayle’s chief of staff. In the mid-90s, he transitioned to conservative media. He founded and edited The Weekly Standard for 23 years, a magazine known as The Redoubt of Neo-Conservatism, or, and Bill, I wonder if you’ve heard this, the Neocon Bible. Did you ever hear it called that?
Bill Kristol
I don’t know if so I put it out of my mind since it would be awkward to be, it would be awkward for many reasons that you understand better than I to be editing the Neocon Bible.
Case Thorp
Hahaha! Yes, that’s true. Good point, good point. Well, afterwards, he co-founded the Bulwark with Charlie Sykes. He is the author of two books, one on the Iraq War, one on the Bush v. Gore case in 2000. His writing frequently appears in national newspapers and he’s a regular on the Sunday morning news shows. Bill serves with the Manhattan Institute. Actually, Bill, that’s one of my favorites. Ethics and Public Policy Center and the Foreign Policy Initiative. He and his wife Susan have three children and I imagine you’re a grandfather?
Bill Kristol
Yes, we have seven grandchildren, so we’re very fortunate.
Case Thorp
Seven grandchildren. Wow, how many live near you?
Bill Kristol
So our two daughters live near us and that accounts for five of the kids. And then our son and his wife and two littlest of the grandchildren are in the New York suburbs, which isn’t that far away. So it’s all between D.C. and New York, very Northeast-centric. That’s my…not really in touch with the rest of America as much as you are.
Case Thorp
Okay. The Northeast Corridor. I remember when I lived in Princeton. The Northeast Corridor, Penn Station, Edison. Yeah. I think for this Southerner, you know, I try. Well, friends, I’ve asked Bill to come and talk with us about the current American religious landscape from his point of view.
And I know that usually our guests are from the Christian world, if not even the evangelical side of the church. But I think it’s important to have a political thought leader, particularly a Jewish thought leader, who really has a good word to say, especially in this increasing time of anti-Semitism. So, you know what, Bill, let’s just start with your faith. Like, tell us about what being Jewish means to you.
Bill Kristol
That’s such a hard question. I think I’m not maybe the most introspective person and also it’s hard to judge, you know, one’s own…what forms you, right, yourself. You know, people always ask that, your parents, your this, your that, but you know, I don’t really know. I think I’m a better judge of other people. But I would say, no, it’s always been a very important part, a very central part of my life, really, almost taken for granted in some ways. Obviously Judaism is different than Christianity in many, many ways, though they’re obviously also cousins or step-brethren or whatever the right term is. But in one way is that for Christianity, obviously the faith is so central and the commitment and the choice really of that commitment. Judaism much more based on birth, at least to start with, famously based more on deeds and the law than on faith, maybe a little bit less. It’s not that moment of commitment necessarily. It’s rather a life lived in a certain community following certain laws or customs and some of us don’t follow them as much as others and there’s a wide variety as you’d expect and but still a sense of commonness. I’ve always been struck by that about Judaism. We’re not terribly observant. We’re somewhat observant. We know people who are much more observant. We know people who aren’t observant at all. You might call them secular Jews but I think for most Jews in America at least really around the world I would say still it’s such a small religion, such an unusual religion, such an old religion, such an interesting history that spawned the other, some of the other major religions obviously. So that this is a real sense of commonality and community, I think, among Jews. I don’t know that it’s often a little bit not as fervent perhaps as other faiths, but I think the sense of community is very strong.
Case Thorp
Well, what is your take on the anti-Semitism right now? In some ways, I hear voices say, it’s a resurrection of what’s always been there. But to me, it feels like a different pro-Arab sort of perspective on Judaism as opposed to white Christian nationalism rejection. What’s your thoughts?
Bill Kristol
I mean, it’s hard to say, honestly. I find it a little bewildering and puzzling. And there are obviously many different strains. And one doesn’t want to overreact if there’s a very difficult war going on in a part of the world. And if Israel, the Jewish democracy of Israel, is a participant in that war, it’s going to stir up deep feelings. So I slightly, maybe more than some of my fellow Jews, I tend to, you know, be not quite as panicked about the moment. I said, let’s let things, let’s see what happens when, as things calm down, part of me thinks. On the other hand, things may not calm down and Israel is under threat. And most of America has rallied Israel after October 7th. And I think most of Americans of all denominations really, but there have been these incidents, obviously on college campuses and elsewhere. They really show a sort of fervent kind, as you say, of anti-Israel sentiment, which spills over into antisemitism of a kind that we haven’t seen in quite a while in the US. Maybe, I don’t want to say never, but certainly unfamiliar to people my age or yours in the US and you hate to see that. It’s bad for Jews, obviously, but it’s bad for the country. I mean, you know, if this can happen with one group, it can happen with another group and if it can happen on one particular foreign policy issue, it could happen on another. So in some ways, I do think it’s part and parcel of the general of weakening of our common culture, of civility, of respect for others. Obviously, in this case, it’s got an additional component because of the October 7th and the Israeli response in Gaza.
Case Thorp
Am I correct in feeling like some individuals, particularly Netanyahu, use anti-Semitism a little too often that you can’t criticize the government of Israel? That they sort of hide behind anti-Semitism when, no, we’ve got to be able to critique other governments.
Bill Kristol
Yes, I think so.
Yeah, sure. And I think some of his supporters here do that too much. And so instead of… Of course, it’s always a little hard to find exactly where that line is. But if people go around saying, you know, the government of Israel should be wiped off… The state of Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth. That’s pretty hard not to say that that’s anti-Semitism. We’re awfully close. What does wipe out mean? It’s wiping out the nation which has half the Jews in the world also be wiping out Christians, and some Muslims, obviously it’s not entirely a Jewish nation by any means, I think about 18, 20% non-Jews, but still that’s a pretty loaded thing to say. If you say, I think, you know, they should be more open to a ceasefire here or to exchanging lands and pulling out of certain parts of the West Bank there, that’s a whole different kind of debate. And I think on the whole previous Israeli governments and the Jewish community here has been very aware of those distinctions.
It’s not like a lot of Jews don’t disagree with Netanyahu about policy. But I do think there’s always a temptation maybe if you’re a little beleaguered politically as Netanyahu is to sort of lash out and especially when there are real instances of antisemitism to let it spill over then into others as a way of kind of discrediting other critics.
Case Thorp
Well, now your mother, Gertrude Himmelfarb, do I have that correct? Himmelfarb, but also known, I guess, to family and friends as Bea Kristoll. She was a historian, correct, in English Victorian history.
Bill Kristol
Mostly, I’m sure a little bit about America as well and other things and then but also pretty well educated on Jewish things that went to the Jewish Theological Seminary.
Case Thorp
Well, that’s what I was going to mention. She went to the seminary and, tell me about her decision to go there and what fed her research.
Bill Kristol
I mean, it was a time when there were not, I think, many women at the seminary. You couldn’t study at that time for the rabbinate. You couldn’t get a rabbinical degree. I’m not sure she would have wanted one, but that’s kind of the big degree at the seminary. And at that point, it’s a conservative, it’s the seminary for conservative Judaism. And at that point, conservative movement didn’t ordain female rabbis. So there was a degree you could go there as a woman and you could study, and it was very welcoming, but you got a different degree.
So she went there while she was in college. I kind of can’t believe it’s still, she went to Brooklyn College, if you know the geography of New York a little bit. She lived in Brooklyn. She lived at home. They didn’t have any money. It’s just after the, just near the end of the depression. And she went to Brooklyn College and then took the subway to the JTS, the Jewish Theological Seminary, which is near Columbia. So that is a long way.
Case Thorp
Yeah, that beautiful…the big stone burning bush is above the doors. Beautiful symbol.
Bill Kristol
Yes. Yeah, and it’s a very distinguished institutional learning at the time, had many great scholars. You know, that was a time, it’s interesting when you think about it, it was a time when there weren’t Jewish studies departments in major universities the way they are today, the way they have been for the last 30, 40, 50 years. And so if you were a real scholar of the Jewish religion, typically you became a rabbi. And if you were on the scholarly side of the rabbinate, you maybe would be professor at a place like the Jewish Theological Seminary. So it really was an elite kind of, mix of a place that trained rabbis, but also an elite Jewish studies department, sort of like the best, I think, theological schools as well, right? I mean, on the Christian side. So she got a good education, but she wanted to study British history and the European history. She always had a strong interest in Jewish things, was a very strong supporter of Israel. And late in life actually wrote a book or two that was really on sort of the British interest in Judaism and actually their sort of surprising amount of the major British authors and British politicians who really had a kind of not just respect for Judaism but a real interest in it. Some kind of weird, some kind of kinship almost between kind of Victorian Britain and what they saw as some of the aspects, attractive aspects really of the Jewish religion.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Disraeli.
Bill Kristol
Yeah, Churchill was a very strong Zionist. George Eliot sets one of her major novels as a Jewish hero. Very unusual when you think about it in 1870 or something like that. There weren’t, you know, it wasn’t like there weren’t zillion Jews floating around in England, you know, to be obvious heroes of this. But she had an interest in, I think, the sense of tradition, the sense of going way back, the sense of luring from your predecessors. That was very compatible with a certain kind of British way of thinking and I think so she was interested in that overlap so to speak.
Case Thorp
Well, someone wrote about your mother. Himmelfarb argued, quote, for the reintroduction of traditional values such as shame, responsibility, chastity, and self-reliance into American political life and policymaking. And I just found those beautiful things, adjectives and concepts that are so missing. Surely this has seeped into you and your life’s work.
Bill Kristol
I think it has influenced me quite a lot, I hope. But I would say she was a historian and someone who made arguments. And so she often drew on history and on social science for these arguments. She wasn’t a preacher, if I can put it that way, and certainly didn’t tell people what to believe. But she made pretty, I guess what we would call them, more social and empirical arguments for why a society that had certain virtues would be a better society, a society in which people could flourish in which families would be stronger and families that are stronger would produce people who were happier and stronger. It was that sort of argument more. She didn’t presume to sort of be saving people’s souls. But I think the historical argument was a very important one and an interesting one. And she wasn’t the kind of conservative who looks back at the great old days. It’s kind of harder to do when you’re Jewish, honestly, given what’s happened to Jews in this century, obviously, in Europe, but also what my grandparents were fleeing from before that in Europe, and even some of the discrimination here. So there’s a little less of that kind of nostalgia for an allegedly better past, I think. So it was a pretty current kind of argument. She drew from older thinkers who influenced her, Edmund Burke and many, many others in the 19th and early 20th century.
But she was interested and sort of uncomfortable, really, in today’s world. She wasn’t some sort of, you know, there are people that I don’t criticize this critically. This is what they think and the way they choose to live. There are people who are kind of recluses or, you know, turn their back, you might say, to the current world. And sometimes they have great contributions to make this. They see things that we don’t see so much today, but she was more comfortable in the current world and in the US. This was the country she grew up in and she loved really and spent the huge bulk of her life in. But she thought these virtues were not old-fashioned or they were if they were old-fashioned they also should be new-fashioned you know that they were had contemporary relevance like I was one of the things that she tried to argue the most people dismiss these things Victorian for values, you know, how can you bring those back? Well, they’re not Victorian, they’re to some degree universal or they could be universal at different times and they’re not just values their virtues They’re really they’re not just arbitrary. I think she was very interested in making that argument
Case Thorp
Well, I really appreciate that. That is very much a part of my conviction in how we as Christ followers are contributing to the common good. And a rich, robust religious landscape is a part of our heritage as a country. And I want to see that flourish for the future, for sure. Could you just reflect on the current role of religion in American politics? Where is it helping? Where is it hurting?
Bill Kristol
I mean, for most of my adult life, I think following in my parents footsteps, I did argue that on the whole, religion was a positive thing in America. We had avoided some of the unfortunate aspects, you might say, of religion from the old world and had character building, tradition forming aspects of religion that are important for people, I think. And that would be true across religions. Not for everyone. Some people live great lives without being religious. Some people who seem to have faith, turn out to not live great lives, unfortunately. But I think in general, I think there’s quite a lot of reason to believe, if you look at history and look at society, that religion can be a force for good. I worry, and in the last few years, that that’s changed to some degree, a kind of hijacking of religion in the service of politics or politicization of religion. There’s been that on the left and right, to be fair. Now it’s much more obvious on the right and maybe more extreme on the right, honestly, and also a kind of intolerance that you occasionally see pop up. I mean, when I was, I’m Jewish, but I came here in 1985 to work in the Reagan and Bush administrations, which were, had some Jews, obviously, and were, but you know, mostly, either Christian or Christians, whether they were observant, whether they were faithful Christians or sort of lapsed, but you know, certainly of that background. I mean, there was a, and, and the Republican party had many fewer Jews in the Democratic party. And there was always, really almost all the way universally tolerance respect interest actually in Judaism there were people I met in Washington who came from different parts of the country would never really work closely with someone who was Jewish, you know.
Case Thorp
Well, until I went to Emory, I knew two Roman Catholics and zero Jews. I knew a whole lot of Baptists.
Bill Kristol
Yeah. But so, yeah, that’s interesting. No, I know it’s, you know, if you go up in New York, of course, you have a totally distorted view of this. Our son was in the Marine Corps after college and he had that experience. I haven’t grown up here in Northern Virginia, going to school at Harvard. You know, there werealways some Jews in our family and our friends. And he said he was striking. He was treated fine. No way of complaining. But when he was a very young officer in the Marine Corps. He met people who literally had, as you were saying, you know, and they were your age, they were college age. A lot of the enlisted guys are just post college, the young officers. And he said they almost had never met a Jew and they were kind of fascinated actually, you know, what do you do? And he said on Saturday, not on Sunday. And then these holidays we’ve heard of once or twice a year where you don’t, you know, eat or something. But it was very good natured and very honest, kind of just asking the questions, you know.
Anyway, that is the American tradition, I think, and I’m a little worried about the last decade or so that there’s been an erosion of that and much more of a sense of intolerance or at least maybe not aggressive intolerance, but certainly not putting tolerance as high on the list of virtues as it should be.
Case Thorp
Well, the Christian nationalism stuff is quite concerning. In fact, this podcast came out of conversations during COVID and afterwards where there just seemed to be a lack of nuance, if you will, in the conversations I was having. And then I see on Facebook and other places individuals that just go off the deep end on the Christian nationalism side, and it’s very concerning.
Bill Kristol
Yeah, I mean, I don’t like it myself. I’m concerned about it too, obviously, not as a Christian, but just for its effects on American public life and on American political life, but also on the character of people. I mean, one of the great things religion does is it lifts one above these political allegiances and things like nationalism, right? I mean, explicitly, of all the religions in the world, Christianity is the one that most explicitly, in my humble opinion, stands against a kind of excessive nationalism, right? It’s not a nationalist religion. I mean, it’s literally not a nationalist religion. It’s universal. Jews, actually Judaism, you could argue is a little more complicated in that way. But so for Christian to become an adjective, modifying the noun nationalism, it’s hard to see how that really works out well.
Case Thorp
No, I don’t think it does. I was a mission pastor here at First Presbyterian Church of Orlando for 12 years, and we did incredible work in the Dominican, in Madagascar, and Christians across the national boundaries have such a unity, we would say, in the power of the Holy Spirit. And that’s why often dictators don’t like Christians, because they have a higher allegiance. And to see that frayed here, I have found as a pastor, though, when I have parishioners or individuals who were favorable towards the idea of Christian nationalism or at least confused and don’t understand. If I lead with, you know, I am a patriot and it’s a different thing to be a patriot than a nationalist. That sort of seems to take the tension out of the room. And somebody goes, okay, yeah, you love our flag. You love our constitution and respect our military. But I see what you mean. This Christian nationalism thing, it takes it too far and aligns Jesus too closely with the American agenda without critique or support.
Bill Kristol
There’s a wonderful essay by George Orwell, which distinguishes patriotism and nationalism. I think he wrote it at the end of World War II. At a time when nationalism was very strong, obviously people were very proud to be Britishers. They should have been after that fantastic, you know, standing alone in World War II. But he said, I mean, he wanted to caution people that of course you should be proud of the nation you live in. You should be proud of what’s especially worth being proud about it. You should also be willing to change it and criticize it if it’s falling short.
But that’s a kind of healthy patriotism. Nationalism really is a kind of disdain for foreign countries or foreign cultures or foreign languages or foreign people based on just prejudice, really, not based on, you know, it’s perfectly appropriate for us to say the democratic, former government, liberal democracy, constitutional democracy is superior to the dictatorships that unfortunately too many people around the world suffer under. It’s another thing to say that we are superior people.
Why? Because we were born here on this plot of land as opposed to some other plot of land. It’s really, when you think about it, it’s a pretty strange thing to say. And this is where I do think American exceptionalism, which once meant pride in our exceptional institutions and our history and a responsibility, therefore, to keep them going. It wasn’t just a boast. It was a kind of, a burden, that’s not the right word. What is the right word? Kind of an obligation to keep it going. It sort of is.
So some cases has transformed itself into just a kind of disdain for the other and boastfulness about what’s here. And I always, that’s what I get in one of these arguments myself. I tend to sort of say, well, what are you boasting about? I mean, you haven’t done anything. We haven’t, our generation hasn’t. I mean, we inherited some very fortunate circumstances thanks to huge sacrifices by our parents’, grandparents’ generations, by people all the way back, obviously in the Civil War in terms of slavery and just building this great nation, all the traditions of tolerance and freedom and respect and democracy. But, you know, if you’re 30 years old, you don’t really get to say, I’ve really, I’m really, you know, I’m just strutting around because I’ve done so many great things. Some 30 year olds have done some good things, but a lot of them are inheriting, all of us are inheriting things we didn’t create.
Case Thorp
Okay, so Louisiana recently passed this bill for the Ten Commandments in every classroom. And, you know, I love and respect the Ten Commandments. I recognize the removal from religion from the public schools has not done us well overall, but I just look at the common good and pluralistic society. Principle pluralism is one of our big convictions that- hold your principles, but recognize your context.
So I’m not a big fan, but how would a secular Jew or even a religious Jew look at that bill?
Bill Kristol
So I share your concerns, I would say, in the sense that I also think it wouldn’t hurt if people knew more about, knew the Ten Commandments and knew more about religion and about religious examples and so forth. And there are ways to teach that public school that are totally appropriate. Obviously, it’s part of our culture, it’s part of our history, it’s part of literature.
Case Thorp
Sure, but they’re making a point with this bill.
Bill Kristol
But I think it is true in this case, and this is where context matters, as you know so well, when it’s passed as part of a kind of gesture not in my judgment a good faith effort to make sure everyone understands this part, you know of Exodus 20 or whatever it is, but you know, it’s sort of, it’s sticking it to the people they want to stick it to and making a statement then you are using religion in a way I think that ends up hurting religion. Honestly, I think people like I see this with some young people in our office, they see they haven’t thought about it that much they might have grown up and somewhat secular but you know sort of traditional slightly observant, these are, I’m thinking, Christians mostly. And they see this and they think, what is this? I mean, you know, and it’s half the people pushing this legislation, I don’t mean in this particular case, but sometimes the people pushing these kinds of legislation have not lived the most admirable lives. So it’s not as if they turned out to be wonderful role models. So I think it can do damage actually to what these sponsors say they’re for. I mean, I should say I went, so I grew up in New York City and from fifth through 12th grade, I went to a private school and its called the Collegiate School, which was actually associated with the Collegiate Dutch Reformed Church. Yeah, Marble Collegiate, very famous actually. Yes. Yes.
Case Thorp
Marble Collegiate, where technically Donald Trump had his membership. And I read a report where, coach, they’re now very, very progressive and liberal at that church, and that a reporter called to confirm this. And very terrifically, the secretary said, I can confirm it, and that’s all. And she hung up.
Bill Kristol
That’s funny. Yeah, I guess what’s his name, Norman Vincent Peale was the, I think he presided at Trump’s first wedding maybe. Anyway, so this was, I mean, by this point, by the time I got there in 1960 something, it was as often as the case in these church schools. It was a pretty attenuated relationship. We were in the building next door to one of the two collegiate churches in New York City, related to branches, I guess you’d say.
We were next door to it. We had chapel once a week on Thursday mornings. I recall we sang Protestant hymns, I still know more Protestant hymns than most of my Jewish friends.
Case Thorp
Did you see Norman? Was Norman around?
Bill Kristol
What’s that? Norman no, no, I think he was still alive but I don’t think I ever met him. And so it was mostly, it was sort of art, it was our assembly for the week at which an announcement was to be made, but there would be sort of a certain religious, you know content too. And at our graduation each year, I remember that. And we would have a Christmas ceremony and sing, the lights would go out and we’d sing Silent Night and so forth. So I’m not a hard liner on no Jew could ever be exposed to Christianity or to some hymns or something like that. So I’m a little more relaxed about some of the prayer in schools sort of issues than some of my friends. Having said that, I also have friends who’ve grown up elsewhere.
This is New York though, 30% of the kids were Jewish. They weren’t going to go out of their way to be unpleasant. I do have friends who’ve grown up where there were three Jewish kids in a class or in a school and it was a kind of exclusionary thing and it was more sectarian so to speak so I think a lot of can be solved with goodwill. My father told me, and I never really checked this so I think it’s correct, though that when he went to public school in New York so that would be in the 30s, really they would read, and to that point New York was quite Jewish. He was in Brooklyn or probably, you know, more than 50% Jewish. They would read a Psalm each day. And that was considered, it was their way of compromising. It was sort of a, it’s from the Bible obviously, and then it’s wonderful literature, it’s wonderful devotion, but it’s also not, it’s from the Old Testament.
Case Thorp
Hmm. That’s right.
Bill Kristol
And it’s sort of not quite like telling people, you know, it’s a different kind of thing obviously than reading, I don’t know, parts of Deuteronomy or something. So I thought that was a rather nice way of sort of managing how one might do this in a pluralist society.
Case Thorp
Well, the conversation is quite large in my part of the church about the rapid de-churching, the decrease of those who participate in religious life of any branch, actually, of any type of religion. And I’m curious your perspective on some of the societal forces that have contributed to this.
Bill Kristol
Yeah, I mean, among Jews, it’s an actual not just de-churching, but de-religionizing, de-affiliating, I guess. About half of Jews in America marry non-Jews. Sometimes the non-Jews convert. Sometimes they don’t convert, but the kids retain some Jewish education and identity, and that’s fine. We have many such people actually in our synagogue. But sometimes the couple chooses to or drifts away from Judaism. When you’re the minority religion, I think there’s always a sense that, you know, an intermarriage is more likely to trend toward the majority, you know, than to the minority. Anyway, so the actual number of Jews in America, and plus Jews have rather low birth rate, so the actual number of Jews in America is going down. So this is leaving aside whether they actually go to synagogue or not. There’s also been some de-churching there, though also a growth with the Orthodox, so it’s a little cross-cutting those trends. Yeah, it’s a smaller percentage of the country than it was 30, 40, 50 years ago. And look, it’s a free country, right? And part of me thinks intelligent people should think about if you think Judaism is good.
I do think, for example, on the intermarriage question, many of my conservative friends are hostiles too strong. They’re very worried about intermarriage, which I understand, and hope their own kids stay within the faith and hope if they do intermarry that the other spouse joins the faith and so forth. But I think there haven’t been, because people were sort of brought up with the notion that intermarriage was kind of something to be discouraged, there hasn’t been, except in the last maybe 20, 30 years and maybe except among war reform and conservative synagogues, a real attempt to welcome the partner, the spouse, into the faith and make it easy. And there is a conversion process and it takes some work and it takes some study and that’s fine, I think. That makes a lot of sense. But I think that’s the place where I think the sort of being afraid of the future has made Jews probably a little too resistant to welcoming new people into a Jewish future. And maybe I’m a little biased on this. Two of our three kids have married people who weren’t brought up as Jews but now have converted and are raising their kids as Jews. And so I think, and they’re very good actually, they care a lot about it. And funny it’s always the case, right? The converts in a way…it’s more alive or can be more, I would say more meaningful, that’s unfair to the other kids, but more somehow it can mean a lot to them as opposed to someone who’s just taking it for granted forever.
So from the Jewish point of view, I think welcoming and intermarriage, making it not easier exactly, but you want to make sure people are serious about it, but being less discouraging about it, deploring it maybe a little less. Now, for the Christian point of view, the de-churching is pretty striking. I’ve seen some of the data. You can blame society, which is fine. You can blame popular entertainment and you can blame a billion things, but people do need to also look at themselves at some point and say, as I say, it’s a free country and unless people really want to get in the business of compelling church membership or attendance, which I don’t think we do, it’s got to be something that means something to people. And I say this in a non-judgmental way in the sense that it’s a problem everyone’s having, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, but maybe we all haven’t done a good enough job of speaking to the next generations.
Case Thorp
Well, I would say you’re spot on. And internally, to the evangelical Presbyterian world, the criticism from my seat is we’ve done discipleship so poorly. The last generation’s attempt to convey the faith and to make it more than just a political identity or a social identity, but to nurture the interior life. And when that’s not there, it does kind of fall apart in life. And there’s a study that a buddy of mine did recently with Ryan Burge, a sociologist. This is from the book called De-churching with Jim Davis and Michael Graham. And this sociological study showed the number one reason why people drift from a church. Do you have a guess?
Bill Kristol
That’s a good question. No,I don’t; I was thinking as you were talking about, so yeah, no, I don’t know. What is it?
Case Thorp
They move.
Bill Kristol
Yeah, well make sense. Yeah, but then people don’t reach out to them when they move, or…?
Case Thorp
And then I think, my goodness.
Well, that’s part of it, and how are our current churches doing? How well are we reaching out to those moving into the community like Orlando? My goodness, we have thousands coming all the time. But to me, the flip side of that coin is, well, how shallow was that faith to begin with? That their participation was more out of a habit and social friendship environment rather than I’ve got a desire and a relationship with the living God and I want to get somewhere and nurture that. So I’ve seen a big shift in the way in which discipleship is happening so that then it’s a more sure faith.
Bill Kristol
Yeah, that’s interesting. I mean, I guess it seems to me from the outside that, I mean, of course, there’s always going to be a social element and you want there to be some social element. People want to, you want friendship and sense of community. I mean, if, but presumably there are relationships among church. I mean, the Catholic church has this in a much more formal way, obviously, but where you could, if someone were moving from Orlando to Atlanta, you would presumably might be able to have a, recommend a colleague’s church or something. I mean, I feel like maybe that’s something we don’t do a good job at either in the Jewish world. I mean, someone leaves and of course people know each other and they’re, and of course they can get from online. They can look and see what the conservative synagogues in Atlanta are. But I don’t get the sense this is much of an attempt to see that people who are leaving or moving to give them a good opportunity to find a place where they’ll, you know, find some of the same spiritual nourishment they’ve, they’ve found, you know, where they’re moving from.
Case Thorp
Well, we’re big disciples of Tim Keller. I imagine you know of his work in Redeemer Presbyterian in New York City. And you mentioned a moment ago that minority perspective. Well, in our discipleship approach, it’s really embracing this exilic minority perspective. Now, I know that surely Christians are the predominant religion and evangelicals certainly are a big chunk of those.
Bill Kristol
Mm-hmm. Very much so, yeah.
Case Thorp
But we try to emphasize, okay, what was it like for the Jews in Babylon during that exile? And how did faith look there? How did it shift? And so I try to help nurture my people in that understanding of culturally, our values and convictions are so very different than the prevailing norms. And so rather than get frustrated and check out or rail against the, rage against the machine, how do we learn, as it says in Jeremiah, to put down roots, grow gardens, marry our sons and daughters, and contribute to the common good?
And that’s our motive, but boy, nationally in the landscape, I worry in a hundred years, what will the religious landscape look like?
Bill Kristol
I mean, that’s so interesting and it’s so much truer, I think, to American history. It’s one of the ironies of Christian nationalism. And I’m sure you’ve thought about this more than I have actually, but I’m struck by it. This is always, this is a Christian nation, it’s always been a Christian nation. Yes, sort of, I mean, but it’s also the Christians who actually came here first, you know, were often dissident Christians, obviously. That’s part of what you learn in fifth grade, right? And the fleeing and the pilgrims, wherever the pilgrims being pilgrims, you know, it wasn’t because everything was great back at home, you know? And so you think, but I do think that’s a problem when you become in a way everyone’s, you know, it’s 21st century and there are a hundred million, 200 million Christians and you lose that perspective of being a bit of a dissident as it were.
Case Thorp
Well, in 1776, 17% of people went to church, and yet the perception is very different. So, I’m curious to see how we call it exilic discipleship, this nurturing of the Christian as the outsider. And really in church history, Christian history, it’s in times of persecution and being the outsider that the church has grown most.
Bill Kristol
Yeah. Yeah.
Case Thorp
Now it’s not that you’re looking for it or asking for it, but that seems to be a pattern there.
Bill Kristol
And do you find that that resonates with maybe younger people especially?
Case Thorp
Yeah, for sure. One of my mentors, in raising his daughters, taught me as a young father that it’s okay to say when your kids complain, why can’t we do this or do that? And he just goes, huh, we’re different. Shrug your shoulders. We’re different. And that’s okay.
Bill Kristol
Yeah.
Tim Keller I met a couple of times. My friend Pete Wehner, you may know or know of, was very close to Tim. So I think a couple of events in Washington he had him here and it was really a privilege to hear him.
Case Thorp
I know of him.
Well, his absence as he transitioned to glory is certainly felt. And did you know, so I was honored to be able to go to the funeral. He was the first and only Protestant ever allowed to have a funeral at St. Patrick’s in New York. Cardinal Dolan was there, gave a welcome, stayed the whole time. But such an impact on America, at least from my little side of the table.
Bill Kristol
Wow, I did not know that.
And do you find that others, you know, there are of course many others who were influenced by him, but that they’re, they’re spreading the influence or are they on the defensive or I mean, it’s just, it’s…
Case Thorp
Well, I mean, granted, I’m in a very reformed, Presbyterian world, and I recognize that. However, I will say City to City was his last major project of helping church plants, particularly in urban centers around the world. And I believe one of his legacies as historians look back into the future will be the way in which he fine-tuned a model for growing the faith in very complex, diverse, pluralistic urban environments.
And that’s across the board. It’s not just for Reformed theologians or Presbyterians. It’s Church of God, Methodist, all sorts. And it’s proving to be very, very successful and it works.
Bill Kristol
Interesting, interesting. My mother, if I can get back to her, as a historian, she was quite interested in, and I never knew as much about this, in the dissident sex in the 18th century in England, the Methodists. And she was quite, as a social historian in a way of efforts to fight poverty, for example, she was very struck by how much some of the reformed, I think, groups, branches, were really invested in that and were very important in the history of this sort of thing. Anti-slavery too.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Well, the abolition movement, the temperance movement, the women’s right to vote, civil rights. It pains me when I hear people introduce or make reference to Martin Luther King Jr. and they never mention he was a preacher. He was so much more than that in many ways, but I mean, he came from his faith convictions.
Bill Kristol
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Case Thorp
Well, Bill, in closing, if you could just give us a prediction. You love to ask your guests on Conversations for their predictions, especially the politicos you talk to. So I worry this Fall with our election, particularly with fake videos and the AI generated things and how it’s just going to mess with stuff. Your thoughts for the coming Fall and how people can perhaps be a little more measured and conduct themselves.
Bill Kristol
I mean, I hope we have a sort of civilized election campaign. I’m not super optimistic about it, but sometimes it is darkest before the dawn and all that. Part of me thinks, I don’t know, maybe we’ve had to go through this decade for various reasons and have put up with things, not just put up with things, but endure things that we shouldn’t, I wish we wouldn’t have had to as a society. But maybe it’s taught us some things and maybe…
Yet people can come out of it, especially younger people. I’m slightly, I know the conventional view among people my age, the boomers is, those millennials and Gen Z, they’re all spoiled and they’re this and they’re that. But I actually have slightly the opposite view actually from talking to people. I mean, now they’re not, you know, they need, there’s some things they don’t know as much about as I did when I was their age. I think history isn’t taught maybe as much as it used to be and so forth. But in other respects, they’re very mature. They’ve seen a lot. They’ve thought a lot, many of them, about society. They’re a little uncertain.
Case Thorp
I would agree.
Bill Kristol
So they do need a lot of help. And that’s where I worry. I mean, if they just, they could drift along and never run it to someone like you or others who could really help ground them. But I also am, in that respect, if we can get through the rough times here, I’m actually somewhat optimistic.
Case Thorp
Maybe there’s a bit of revival, bit of renewal coming around the corner. Well, Bill Kristol, thank you so very much. I want to encourage folks, check out his podcast, Conversations. You will find it wherever you can get your podcasts. Well, friends, thank you for joining us. Please like and share. It really helps us to get the word out. Leave a review wherever you get your podcast. You can go to collaborativeorlando.com. for all sorts of content, particularly a 31-day Faith and Work Prompt Journal that we have. Fill out the form and I’ll be glad to send you one for free. You’ll find us on the social media platforms. Also, don’t forget, Nuance Formed for Faithfulness. This is our weekly 10-minute devotional for the working Christian that follows the liturgical calendar. I want to thank our sponsor, Ben Vincent Esquire of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, for today. I’m Case Thorp, and God’s blessings on you.
