Show Notes
On this episode of Nuance, Case is joined by former naval officer David McKinney to discuss his career in the military and how his faith intersected with his service. They discuss the role of Christians in the military the spiritual challenges of military life, and the importance of finding one’s identity in Christ rather than in military achievements. They also explore the concept of just war theory and the challenges of decision-making in times of armed conflict.
Resources from the episode:
Just War Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory
National Christian Foundation Orlando: https://www.ncfgiving.com/orlando/
Case’s lecture on Violence in the Old Testament: https://fb.watch/rmpIYsyL0R/
Nuance is a podcast of The Collaborative where we wrestle together about living our Christian faith in the public square. Nuance invites Christians to pursue the cultural and economic renewal by living out faith through work every facet of public life, including work, political engagement, the arts, philanthropy, and more.
Each episode, Dr. Case Thorp hosts conversations with Christian thinkers and leaders at the forefront of some of today’s most pressing issues around living a public faith.
Our hope is that Nuance will equip our viewers with knowledge and wisdom to engage our co-workers, neighbors, and the public square in a way that reflects the beauty and grace of the Gospel.
Learn more about The Collaborative:
Website: https://collaborativeorlando.com/
Get to know Case: https://collaborativeorlando.com/team/
Episode Transcript
Case Thorp
Hello, everybody, and welcome to today’s episode of Nuance. And we are going to the military corner of the public square. I’ve got one of my good buddies, David McKinney, who’s here and going to talk with us about his career in the Navy. And how his faith both guided him are how even struggled or flourished in this major institution with worldwide impact. You know, we live in a world of conflict. And war is both a reality today. And it has been through human history. And so you might wonder, well, how do we understand our nation’s defense and armed forces as Christians? I come from a military family and I’m very proud of that I, I hold military service in high regard. But you know, there’s a pacifist stream within Christianity. So what is a Christian to do when it comes to serving in the military in which violence inevitably occurs?
I’m Case Thorp, and welcome. Remember, please like, subscribe, and share this episode, it really helps us to expand our reach. Now, if you’ve been listening last couple episodes, you know, we’re doing something a little new at the Collaborative, we’ve widened our scope from just faith and work more to the public square and how Christians’ faith impacts culture. And so we’ve got biweekly guests who will help us to speak on such topics. Don’t forget, we’ve also got a new 10-minute episode for spiritual formation called Formed for Faithfulness. Hope you’re enjoying this. Well, David McKinney, hey, man, thanks for being here. Doctor. Admiral.
David McKinney
That was a lofty rank that I never achieved.
Case Thorp
Yes, yes. Well, so like, long time no see, right?
David McKinney
Been way too long, what we’re like a mile or two from each other?
Case Thorp
And, you know, we see each other almost daily at the First Pres campus. People should know, like, David’s often following me in the mornings when we’re coming to carpool. Yes.
David McKinney
I’m the one who harasses you from behind with the insane honking to annoy you.
Case Thorp
Yeah, but like, you harass me in this really cool new Jeep, tell everybody about that.
David McKinney
For some reason, my dream car has been a the old style Jeep Grand Wagoneer. And last fall, Lindsey was kind enough to say, hey, we need to do that and get one for you. So we are able to get one and it’s in pretty decent shape. Got some rust and some other things that probably need to be taken care of on the outside, but the on the inside it’s pretty nice. And the engine works. I do pray every time I hop in it and turn the key to start it in hopes that it’ll start for me, but it’s 1989. Okay, it’s pretty. It’s it’s pretty recognizable. I haven’t seen too many other ones driving around Orlando. And when we do, it’s always like…
Case Thorp
Oh, there’s the car. Well, I mean, it’s super cool, and it totally fits the brand. Well, for y’all to know a little bit about David. He is currently the chief operating officer with the National Christian Foundation here in Orlando. Prior to that, though, David served for 21 years in the United States Navy, first as a helicopter pilot, and then a flight instructor and then in public affairs. So his naval career, I mean, he was deployed to the Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, the Philippines, was a strategic adviser and media relations expert with the Navy SEALs, man, you’re so cool. He was communications officer for the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon, and then, just before his military retirement, served in a similar role at the United States Naval Academy. He has a bachelor’s in mathematics from the US Naval Academy, he did mathematics like I never put that together.
David McKinney
The thought of writing a paper in college was like torture. So I went through all the different majors I knew I didn’t want to be an engineer or a scientist. And the whole idea of spending time in the library. This is when back in the day when you and I went to school where you actually had to go to the library catalogs. Yes. Yeah, that was that would have been torture. So I think I wrote like a paper a semester, rather than my, my poli sci, my political science roommate who was up weekly finishing papers.
Case Thorp
Well, and The thought of a lot of people doing math in college is overwhelming. I’d rather write a paper. I you know, as much as we hang out know each other. I didn’t realize you have an MBA from the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey. And then I didn’t know this. And y’all I think this is super cool. A master’s degree in national security strategy from the National War College in Washington, DC. Wow. David and his wife Lindsey have three precious children. And they’ve got really cool names tell us their names.
David McKinney
Sure, our oldest is named Lofton Chapel. We had her when we were in San Diego. And she’s destined for the stage in the spotlight. Our next daughter’s Liberty Bishop, and she’s pretty awesome herself. She’s gotten into softball this year and loving it being behind the plate as a catcher. Yeah. And our son is named Davidson why and he goes by by Lyon and has has the mane to boot.
Case Thorp
Yeah, he’s got some great hair. Yeah, my sons Charles and Brooks, I mean, they’ve got some great hair too. Okay, so MBA and a master’s in national security like that. I want to hear about those. But if you’ll tell us the kind of the arc of your military career and even where those things fit in.
David McKinney
I graduated from Annapolis in 1998 and then went to flight school. It’s about a two year process. So went to Pensacola selected helicopters, they stayed in Pensacola for training and then went out to San Diego to learn my aircraft. I flew the CH 46 Delta the C night which is the now defunct aircraft that the Navy doesn’t fly anymore. It’s a tandem rotor helicopter. So no tail rotor, kind of like the army Chinook that they still fly the 47. Then I had the privilege of going to a squadron up in Norfolk, HC six, and did my deployment. When I was in the squadron there, that was when we went to the Persian Gulf we deployed and at one point on our deployment, the the captain of the of the boat, had everybody on the flight deck and said, Hey, we’re extended indefinitely. And we don’t know when we’re going home. So let everybody at home know that you’ll be here for a while.
Case Thorp
So this was like prior to Iraq and Afghanistan, and you found out like, oh, something’s happening?
David McKinney
No, this was after 9/11. This was in 2002, like at the end of 2002, early 2003. As things were kicking off in Iraq, yeah. We had a Marine Expeditionary Unit on board with a complement of helicopters and Harriers and the ground, the battalion landing team that was on board so those those folks got dropped off in Kuwait and went all the way up into into Baghdad and had the bullet holes and everything to show for it and came back unscathed them on the marsh to Baghdad. So I did that deployment and then came back to the states and ended up transitioning back down to Pensacola and did a tour as a flight instructor. Did you know now, I was at sort of the initial helicopter flight training for student naval aviators as they go on their quest to get their Wings of Gold. And then after that, I went to Afghanistan for a year and was on the airbase in Bagram with a joint task force force there supporting the army. And that was in ’06/’07. So relatively quiet times there in Afghanistan when I was there.
Case Thorp
And were you married through this time?
David McKinney
No, I wasn’t married at that point in time. And Lindsey and I knew each other and probably that’s probably one of the main reasons why we got married is because I, when I went on deployment over there, realize that, that she was the person that I wanted to spend my life with. And pretty much the first weekend I was back, went in and got back in touch with her and told her I loved her and the rest is smart, three kids later, and yeah, never had a fight. Been great.
Case Thorp
Smart man. If you’re watching on YouTube, you can see the smirk on his face that that may not be fully true.
David McKinney
And then after Afghanistan, I was stationed back up in the Norfolk Hampton Roads area, and ended up transitioning into public affairs and spent the last half of my career doing that. So in the Navy Public Affairs is strategic communications. A lot of media relations, that’s one of the main main focus and drivers of what we do also have a lot of time, or at least some time working with books and movies and TV, all that kind of kind of stuff at the very various different commands that that we’ve been stationed at and I’m, and you’re really connected with whoever’s in charge, and advising them on how to either get into the news or stay out of the news, how to communicate with the American public what what the message is of what it is that we’re trying to accomplish by being involved in a conflict or not, or whatever the case may be.
Case Thorp
And then ended with the Naval Academy.
David McKinney
Yep, so I did as a public affairs officer, I started out at a strike group in San Diego, and then went to the seals corporate headquarters, so Naval Special Warfare Command, and then worked for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, on his pa staff and then finished up in Annapolis. When I was a flight instructor, though, I at that point in time in my career, I thought I wanted to get out. And I pursued the MBA through Monterey through the Navy’s postgraduate school. So I was able to do that concurrently and not have to be out in Monterey and got the it was really nice to have. When your life is so focused on one thing, it was all flying and learning how to teach and instruct and learning aircraft and how do we be how do we how do you be a better instructor? And how do you help these flight students that are going through know what what it is that they’re going to face when when it’s their turn? And to have some time during that that three year tour to think about business and to learn about accounting and management in consulting was was pretty fun for me.
Case Thorp
Now, where along the way, why, and tell us more about this National Security Strategy Master’s?
David McKinney
Sure. So after I became a public affairs officer and was working for the seals, got selected for my next rank for commander, 05, and the powers that be the detailer as the folks that are in charge of where we go, and when we go, selected me to go to the National War College, Each service has their own war college. So the Navy has War College up and up in Newport, Rhode Island. The Army has War College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and the Air Force has their Command and Staff College down in Montgomery, Alabama.
Case Thorp
How does the War College differ from like the Naval Academy?
David McKinney
So Naval Academy is a an undergraduate institution, each of the services. There’s the Air Force Academy out in Colorado Springs, Annapolis is is obviously the Naval Academy. And West Point is the Army’s under those are the three undergraduate institutions, then the Coast Guard upon the Coast Guard does have one, but I would remind you that the Coast Guard is a Department of Homeland Security are not a branch. I used to be in the DOT, the Department of Transportation before Homeland Security came about.
Case Thorp
Okay, but then what’s the difference with a war college?
David McKinney
So the war colleges are more of an advanced like graduate level instruction and training. There’s two different levels to become what’s called a joint qualified officer JQO. You go through a lower level instruction in in strategy and tactics on on at the War College, and then you can go to an advanced level where you get a master’s degree out of it.
Case Thorp
Now, if you’re not in the field, but in public relations, why would they want you to get that degree?
David McKinney
So it’s actually spread out across all the different designators. So all that, like we had, I had a couple of seals in my class. Some mariners, pilots, ship drivers, so this is all from the Navy side. And then when you had the army, we had army officers and they were good at SF guys Special Forces Green Berets, you had guys who are artillery guys who were engineers, infantry, the whole gamut of of the specialties that are in the army. And then we had Marine Corps officers that were pilots and naval flight officers were infantry artillery supply officers. Same with the Air Force. You had bombers, missile years, fighter pilots, logisticians supply, all the all the different services sent folks to the National War College. And then you also had the folks from the interagency so we had a couple of folks from actually from the CIA, we had folks from Treasury, we had folks from State Department, all the different governmental agencies would send a couple folks and then we also had foreign officers. We had about 20 foreign officers. We had I remember this guy Lasha from Georgia was a not the state of Georgia but the country of Georgia. The former Soviet Republic was in our class. We had some guys from, Peter, from the Czech Republic was in my cohort so we had folks from all over The world that we’re, we’re part of our class.
Case Thorp
Okay, fascinating. And thank you for your service. Truly. Let’s go.
David McKinney
Can I pause and give you a response that not a former classmate, but a guy was a 97 guy at at Annapolis. His name is Clint Bruce, he is probably one of the best responses that I’ve I’ve heard for that when somebody says thank you for your service, his response is, you’re worth it. And I’ve taken that to heart. I don’t say it all the time. But I thought it’s a very appropriate response for for why we do what we do.
Case Thorp
Wow, that that’s, that’s cool. Thank you. So now, your faith journey along this wonderful military career. Your dad was a pastor, right?
David McKinney
Yeah, my dad’s a pastor still is. And I grew up in the church. So faith was always a part of of who I was, or who I am. Funny sidebar, when I was stationed at Annapolis, one of my classmates and I reconnected and became kind of best friends again, we were able to go to the library at Annapolis and see our application. So you know, you’re in your 40s. And you can see what you wrote as a 17/18 year old kid wanting to wanting to apply and go and I didn’t realize looking back how how deep my faith was even as a as a kid. But talking faith journey, you move a ton as a military member, at least most of the time most people do. So every three years or less. We were we were moving this is Orlando is actually the longest place I’ve ever lived. I feel other than growing up. So that’s challenging when it comes to faith because so much of faith is getting plugged into a church community. And you have to be intentional about that. It just isn’t going to happen for you. You have to seek it out. And you have to pursue a local community of faith. A different, different church. When I was in Pensacola as a flight student, I ended up going to a great church there and getting plugged in and teaching Sunday school. And when I went back four years later, I I connected with the kids that I taught in middle school study school were seniors in high school. And so I reconnected with those kids. And then I had a great church in San Diego. And when I when I moved to Norfolk to my squat, and I just couldn’t find the local church that that was yeah, that was the place for me to connect. And I really struggled during that tour as a result of the fact that I didn’t have that, that that local church community to be plugged into.
Case Thorp
So you’re actively going off base for such a church community experience. I mean, but there are chaplains?
David McKinney
Oh, there are chaplains, for sure. And there and there is a chapel on base. Typically what most people don’t realize is that a lot of people don’t ever live in base housing. We I only did it once in my career. And and that’s probably not very unusual most, most of the time you live just like, I’m just like you, Case.
Case Thorp
Yeah, well, that’s interesting. I did not know that. I do know that. My parents were at Fort Gordon, which is in Augusta when my sister was born. This is 1971. And my mother said, I will not have my baby in a military hospital. And so my dad went to the bank, he got a loan for $600 so that she could go to the private hospital.
David McKinney
Well, I wouldn’t tell you that that military medicine has definitely improved. Believe it or not, actually, all three of our kids were not born in military facilities. You have the opportunity to with the health care that we have to pursue care outside of the service. But when we were in and we had great care. And the VA and the VA does a good job as well.
Case Thorp
So talk to me personally, like, what was the Lord speaking into your life through these many years of service and development?
David McKinney
Good question. You know, when I when I signed up to enter Annapolis, we weren’t. The world was a very different place. It wasn’t 9/11 hadn’t happened. The Cold War was over the original Iraq war was over. There was a little bit going on in Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia. But there we were, in a time of pretty much American primacy throughout the world. And so I wasn’t really entering a world that I I wasn’t entering a military where I thought we were going to be dealing with like a 20 year career at war. So when when I checked into my squadron in late August 2001, I didn’t foresee combat deployments. At that point in time, I actually hadn’t even flown a flight my squadron when, when 9/11 happened. And it was, that was a pretty, pretty incredible day and we have 13 aircraft in the squadron I was in and if you know anything about most squadrons, not all your aircraft are up and available to fly at a time just due to maintenance that that’s happening. And we were able to put 11 helicopters onboard the George Washington. And it was steaming to New York that night to to go protect the metropolitan area because we didn’t know what was happening. We didn’t know if there were going to be other attacks or what but it was it kind of made you realize that there was there was more of a seriousness and severity to service than, than I think we realized at the time. And you always knew that you were serving your country, it just there there gave more gravity to the idea of service and the idea of, hey, I’m, I’m joining something that’s bigger than me. I believe in freedom, and it’s worth protecting and fighting for. And, and that’s my, my grandfather was in World War, both grandfathers were in World War Two. My dad’s dad was a P-51 Mustang pilot in in the Far East, and had a couple a couple of kills. And my, my mom’s dad was on a minesweeper in in the Pacific as well. And then my dad served and uncles as well. So service is, is in our family. And I wanted to fly it as a as a kid and I and I wanted to I mean, I saw Top Gun and you know, you want to go, you want to go 100 miles an hour with your hair on fire and do cool things and serve your country. So that’s that was why I served and you know, it was interesting about about service is, you realize that identity is such a huge thing. And you have to realize where your identity comes from, and whether your identity is in the uniform you wear the Insignia that’s on your sleeve, the pins that are on your uniform, or is your identity come from something more more deep inside you from a relationship with the Lord and I had different things happen along the way. During my there in my service that they weren’t fun and kind of shaky to your identity. And you realize that like I like I’m a Child of God, I may wear wings, I may not wear wings, I may wear a certain rank or not, or get get medals or achievements. But all that doesn’t, doesn’t really matter. Because you’re secure in who you are.
Case Thorp
I mean, I would imagine has in life with that’s a rare thing. You are surrounded by guys climbing the ranks that do put a lot of value into such positions.
David McKinney
Absolutely. And the military really is an upper out institution. I can’t remember who I was talking about it recently, but they were like, boggled by the, by the idea that, like you, you get good at flying and then and then you don’t do it anymore. Like you you have all this money invested in you to become a talented aviator. And then you do it for three years and your flying career is, basically almost over and like that’s essentially what it is. Some have the opportunity to continue a career.
Case Thorp
Why did they end it so quick?
David McKinney
Well, you have a you know, you’re gonna flight school at your squadron tour. And then you might be able to be instructor and then you can go back but the it’s just a it’s a winnowing process if there’s 30 pilots that are junior officers, there might be 10 at the next level and then to at the level above that it’s just there are so many other positions that need to be have folks that serve in that it’s just part of the career path. So it’s it’s a really interesting thing in the in the civilian world you pursue excellence and you pursue expertise and once you achieve that you want to you want to maximize that for profit and yeah, and we we have this upper out like you’re you get good you get selected and then you move to the next rank and you compete against those folks at that rank and then you get selected for the next one and it’s a it’s a very much a pyramid rank structure.
Case Thorp
Yeah. So you mentioned grandfathers in World War II. Mine did as well. One was in the Navy and actually, the grandfather after whom I’m named. And he was in both European and Pacific theaters, they had a kamikaze Japanese plane hit their ship. They did not go down, but he said it took us about two weeks to get back to port. And the plane had hit and destroyed both their toilet paper and their ice cream. Oh, and he said, I don’t know which one was worse.
David McKinney
For sure. And when I was on, when I was flying on my, off the boat on my deployment, we would do some supply runs. And so you’d pick up ice cream off the ice cream, mail, toilet paper off the supply ship and bring it over to yours. And you just pray you don’t have to, we call it pickle the load. If it gets out of control under the aircraft, like where you release it and have it go into the into the ocean. You know, thankfully we never had to do that. But you know that the worst thing in the world would be to have to pickle the load.
Case Thorp
I like that phrase, pickle the load. I may use that. Because I do too much. And so I need to pickle some loads. So because of that great tradition in that the family, respect for the military, maybe this didn’t cross your mind. But going into the Naval Academy, like did you think about violence? And what did Jesus have to say, and the ethics of military service?
David McKinney
It wasn’t really a major topic around the dinner table growing up, it was more the idea of, of service and serving your country and, and that’s just kind of…it was normal, like the idea of service was, was not this crazy thing, like you’re gonna go off to war or anything like that, I’m sure my mom spent plenty of time on our knees praying for our safety. I actually I think all three, I have twin brothers that are about a year and a half younger than I am. And I think there was a point in time when all three of us were not in the States. And I know that that was a trying time for my mom. But the idea of violence and protecting freedom. I mean, I’ve been reading a lot in I read a daily Bible plan. And we’re, I’m just finishing, I just finished Deuteronomy today. So you see God’s instructions to the Israelites. And it’s essentially merciless, like, kill the women, kill children, kill livestock, kill everything, don’t take their stuff. So like, for right there. God is on, God was on their side. And and I think when you feel like you are in the, in the right and have the moral high ground, to serve, and to do what’s right there. There isn’t necessarily a lot of confusion or consternation over executing the orders that you’re given. As long as there’s, as long as you feel like you’re there’s a moral right to it, and that you’re accomplishing the most good.
Case Thorp
I’ve got a lecture that I do on violence in the Bible, and how to properly interpret and understand it, not to excuse it. But I think often Christians will point towards other faiths, particularly the Islamic terrorism we see, which obviously, is such a small percentage and the outlier of Islam. But they will point the finger of oh, how violent that religion is. And the fingers get pointed back to us. Yeah, but your own scriptures have quite a bit. So I’ll post that in the show notes. If anybody’s interested to check out.
David McKinney
That would be super interesting to hear your thoughts on that.
Case Thorp
Well, and if anybody does, go and listen to it, email me, I’d love to keep that conversation going. So now your heart for service is very clear and strong. And that is a key component of Christian faith. Your father though, being a pastor in his servant’s heart, did you ever think about pastoral ministry? Were you avoiding pastoral ministry?
David McKinney
No, end of discussion. No. I mean, there’s plenty of ways to serve and I don’t think that you can…you don’t have to serve the Lord from like, via the cloth. You know what I mean? I think as much impact can be made in the marketplace and how you are an example to others, for sure, in where in where you are, and I would definitely tell you that that wasn’t always me.
Case Thorp
What do you mean?
David McKinney
So the military tries to be a cross section of society. So it’s not just a white male population we have, the goal is to be representative of the entire population. And so with that you have people that come from all sections of society from, from poverty and wealth from, from inner city to farmland, and with that everybody comes with their own set of beliefs, but the military tries to instill duty, honor country, in in everyone and give everyone a reason to serve and a reason to, to believe to fight for what they believe for the freedoms that we have. And we’ve been the standard bearer across the world for for a very long time. The challenge of the you know, in the most recent wars is the you know, what’s really true when it comes to to Intel and and reasons to go to war, you know, with, with the Iraq War, and searching for weapons of mass destruction and the yellow uranium cakes or whatever that supposedly are, some of the reasons why you why you go to war, but is it really regime toppling or whatever. So there’s, there’s all sorts of different conspiracy theories and everything else, but when you believe in, in what’s right and believe in protecting freedom, both here and abroad, it’s it’s not hard to obey the orders of those above you, when you believe in in the cause of freedom.
Case Thorp
Yeah. But you had made reference to there were some points where you weren’t quite where you are today in that.
David McKinney
Oh, for sure. I mean, there are times in my life where I haven’t been as, as plugged into the Lord as I, as I feel like I am now and your behavior and your your, your life actions reflect that, and we’re not, we’re not as as bright of a light to others. And as you can be, as you should be. I mean, I’ve made plenty of mistakes along the way, in my, in my personal life, that that would probably cause somebody to be like that, dude, there’s no way that guy’s a Christian. And then there’s other times where it’s like, I want to be like that guy. But I think that’s probably true for for all of us, regardless of whether you use it, or whether you wear a uniform or not.
Case Thorp
Sure. Well, I know it’s true in seasons of mine, for sure. Now, a minute ago, you made the point that military engagement needs to have that ethical reason behind it. And I think that’s what the citizenry are often looking for. So my eyes were kind of opened, when in seminary, I got the some teaching and did some reading on what’s called just war theory. I’m sure you heard of that in your master’s program.
David McKinney
Maybe once or twice, probably forgotten more than I ever learned.
Case Thorp
Well, for those who may not be familiar, I mean, Augustine writes, a lot of this, Thomas Aquinas adds even more elements asking the question that when is violence necessary and appropriate from a Christian perspective, because we’ve not only have examples of military campaigns, as we’ve mentioned, not always used as we think they might should be, but also in just appropriate ways, but also then how you deal with Jesus saying, turn the other cheek. And so just war theory lays out, using Christian principles, when it is appropriate to go to war. And so let me mention this real quick. If it’s a just cause, meaning it is pursuing justice, and if it’s a just…
David McKinney
And I jumped in there on Just Cause real quick. I mean, we’ve even had Operation Just Cause I think, if I, if my memory serves me correctly, that was I think that was Panama. Back in the late 80s, early 90s.
Case Thorp
Sure, and wouldn’t you say, I mean, there’s a whole lot of papers and wrangling and conversation in the Pentagon to work these things out.
David McKinney
Oh, yeah. We don’t go to war quickly. Right. I mean, there is there is an entire industrial, like military industrial complex that that moves to ensure that when we go to war, we’re prepared to win to fight and win. And, and the whole decision making process is deliberative, and goes through so many different levels of just discussion. It’s not something that’s like, oh, let’s go to war in Iraq, you know, yeah, you’re not something like that at all. I mean, there’s, there’s a huge decision making process and I mean, you you learn it at War College, how that process works and the different level of how those decisions are made and how the legislative and the executive branch were together. You know, we don’t We’ll go with we don’t go to war without Congress, authorizing it, you know, the executive branch the president. Well, I mean, yes, technically the President does have executive authority to carry out some action, but not unilaterally to have us go to war. There’s the National Security Council and the folks that are on that, and principals, committees and deputies committees, and there’s a lot you know, the the chairman is the is the President’s senior uniformed military advisor. And here’s a four star general or admiral that has probably close to 40 years of experience and has a staff of maybe, maybe over 1000 people that support him in the office of the chairman, the Joint Staff is, is large. And it the whole point of that staff is to support the chairman so that he can provide his best military advice to the, to the to the President. And so he’s there to give advice and participate in the National Security Council debates and everything else.
Case Thorp
And speak into if this is a just cause. Let me mention the other six. So is it a just intent, meaning, I guess your heart in the Christian language is in the right place, or your agenda is not for abusing a group of people group, but for a better end? It’s the last resort. So I would imagine after a great deal of diplomacy and conversation, this is a last resort for legitimizing authority, meaning you are the head of the nation state. And I think that’s been challenged a lot because in terrorism was the legitimate authority on the other side, limited goals. And I remember, George HW Bush was highly praised for his very clear, limited goals in liberating Kuwait, but not taking the military to Baghdad, and there were some that wanted him to, and he held firm on those goals, proportionality, and meaning you engage to the degree to which you are engaged as opposed to scorched earth now, that’s the big struggle right now in the Israel Gaza situation. And then non combatant immunity noncombatant immunity. And I tell me, I think that means like, villagers and people without guns should be left alone and not wiped out.
David McKinney
Yeah, we’re the fights against enemy combatants. And typically there’s the Geneva Convention, although terrorists haven’t signed the Geneva Convention. So it’s really hard to apply those those principles when you’re writing your enemy isn’t a party to the same treaty, your principles that you’re here are part of.
Case Thorp
Well, if folks haven’t heard of this before, I just want folks to know, I mean, there is a tremendous amount of theological thinking and writing in the direction of the ethics of the Christian ethics of war. Now, some may hear that and say, oh, that’s just a bunch of words to get around, exercising force for somebody’s national agenda, you know, but I’m grateful that we are at least in a country that struggles with these things and seeks to meet these things, as opposed to other countries we see in the world that have all sorts of motives that are aren’t necessarily pure. How did you see just war unfold in your career?
David McKinney
Great question. When 9/11 happened, you have essentially, almost 3000 innocents in the World Trade Center passed away. Stock traders and office workers and everything else that are just going about their daily life and daily business that two huge buildings are gone. lives are changed. Like they didn’t they didn’t ask for that. Right? I mean, they just weren’t going to work in the morning. And that a woke a sleeping giant, if you will. Like we don’t take kindly to being attacked on our own soil. And we’re gonna go get we’re gonna go get you and it took a long time to finally get Osama bin Laden in Islam, or in Audubon in 2011. I think it was. Yeah. But that was a huge objective was to take out the leader of al Qaeda. Because we didn’t want it happening happening. Again. The intent in my mind was to, like take out the head. Again, you take out one head and other pop up elsewhere, and we’ve been playing Whack a Mole I think for a long time, but I think when you live in a fallen world and people don’t realize their need for a Savior and who that savior is. Then conflict is inevitable. And we see that today, obviously.
Case Thorp
In closing, though, give us a little bit of insight on what you do today, because we love the National Christian Foundation here at the Collaborative and have an account there, I’m proud to say, but give us a hint of what you do there.
David McKinney
Sure. And CFC national organization with over 30 offices around the country. Orlando is an affiliate that was started back in 2012, Tim Senath, founded it and we’ve been here, steadily growing generosity in the Central Florida region. Basically what we operate as a donor advised fund platform and help generous families, be wise and better stewards have all that they’ve been given and help them with a giving strategy. Most people have a financial strategy, but not necessarily a giving strategy. Now let’s go we come alongside families and help them with their giving strategy. We help to simplify giving and helping people be more strategic in the way that they give.
Case Thorp
Yeah, that’s great. Well, we will have a link to National Christian foundation, Orlando office in our show notes. So follow up if you’d like to know more. So David, maybe that means I need to have you on again and just talk about generosity.
David McKinney
Happy to do that for you, too. Yeah.
Case Thorp
I did. So I’ll see you around in your Jeep.
David McKinney
Sounds good. Maybe we’ll see in car line.
Case Thorp
Yeah, too often. Alright, man, thank you for being here. And I want to thank the rest of you for joining us today. Again, like and share helps us get the word out. And leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. You can go to collaborativeorlando.org for all sorts of further content and we’re on all the social media platforms. Don’t forget our Formed for Faithfulness, a weekly 10-minute devotional for the working Christian that follows the liturgical calendar. Want to thank our sponsor for today, the Magruder foundation. I’m Case Thorp and God’s blessing on you.
